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Post by Ken (INTJ) on Sept 3, 2018 0:03:00 GMT
I have put together a short presentation on Feherlofia, covering five archetypes present in the animation. The first archetype is the metaphor of a world tree. The world tree connects death with life, hell with the heavens. In Old Norse, the tree is known as "Yggdrasil," and in Hungarian, the tree is known as "Világfa." Implicit in this schema is the principle of interconnection between death and life, and the fact that life is dependent on the death principle, and not the other way around. Practically, this means that death (ancestral roots, evolutionary pressure) produces beauty (the leaves of the tree) by cutting away what is ugly and perfecting the process of survival. If we remove the gnarled roots of the tree, we will not have the beautiful flowers at the top. Without hell, there can be no heaven. The next archetype I cover is that of the Old Father. We are all familiar with Zeus, Odin, and Jehovah. Less familiar is Gök Tengri, the Turkic sky God, or Szélkirály, the Hungarian wind God. In Feherlofia, the Old Father is usurped by the dragons, who are unleashed by the three curious wives. The dragons are similar to the Greek Titans, as they are elemental forces who disregard all honor and righteousness. When stripped of his power, the Old Father appears to the young hero as a ghost in the woods. He is similar to Odin or Zeus, who shape-shift and appear to heroes in lonely places. Materially, we might explain this phenomenon as a hallucination resulting from social-sensory deprivation which allows the hero to access his unconscious mind, and therefore access deep ancestral knowledge. Edit: we could compare the return of the Old Father with the return of Christ, the return of Aragorn, or the return of Barbarossa: the one who restores order after a dark storm. The three wives each represent a female archetype. The first is the harlot, who uses her sexuality to manipulate men without loyalty to them. The second is the neurotic woman, who does not possess the strength to help her husband, but instead causes problems for him. She knows right from wrong, but her fears, anxiety, and emotionalism cause her to be a burden. The last wife is the golden wife who assists her husband because of her fearlessness and selflessness. She is the perfect companion (biblically, a "helpmeet") for him. Despite the inherent goodness of the latter two wives, they are still driven by their curiosity to unleash the "Pandora's box" of the dragons. Of great interest to me is the fact that this animation was commissioned in communist Hungary, at a time when the American film industry had embraced legalized pornography and interracial romance. It is a film which uses a psychedelic style that might appeal to "left-leaning" creative minds, but has several underlying conservative and traditional morals. The skill of the animation is fascinating from a certain artistic perspective, and yet simple enough to be used as a cartoon for children. What I did not mention in my video presentation is that the film clearly sets up an opposition between ecological primitivism and technological chaos. The first dragon represents a golem, the second dragon represents a tank, and the third dragon represents an entire city or metropolis. Between the emphasis on industrialization in Stalinist communism and the emphasis on ruralization in the Khmer Rouge, this film certainly tends toward the latter. For those who are further interested in Hungarian films which contradict the Hollywood/Parisian/Berlin currents that dominate the movie industry, I would recommend Az ember tragédiája (The Tragedy of Man). I have not yet found a good English transcript of the play which it is based on. If anyone could assist me in discovering a translation that would be enormously helpful. Edit: I forgot to mention the journey into the underworld to fight the dragons and save the princesses, which is found in Aeneas, Christ, and even Mario. Also the raising of a hero by animals, like Romulus and Remus. Turkic states that the Turkic peoples are descended from wolves. The interesting idea is that of a person born with morality in their blood, rather than needing to be taught. |
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Post by slotahimself (INTP) on Sept 5, 2018 12:24:55 GMT
While I haven't watched the film yet due to doing prep work on Magyar mythology and folklore, there's still several things here that are important general concepts that I'll comment on. The World Tree concept being present in Magyar myth is a topic worthy of a research round itself. Actually, if you look at some of the movie art, there's a picture depicting the World Tree with the horse present.  I was also wondering what the yellow orifice was at the bottom and was embarrassed that I didn't come up with the same conclusion as you, as it's pretty obvious that it's a woman's essence. I continued a line of thought after realizing this, that it also doubles as the horse's mouth as well, and how breath was typically considered to be what the make-up of "spirit" is in a wider Christian context. The significance of the horse to the Magyar's betwixt with these themes made me wonder if the horse was chosen, since they were horse lords of the steppes, thus there being a deeper relationship between all of these collectively. I plan on expanding on this in my post as well and don't have my thoughts and research collected on that point, so I'll expand on that later in my post however it's clear to me that the horse is seen as something critical to the Magyar nation, and thus the people. I know that the Magyar people are a Finno-Ugric people in a philological context, so the World Tree concept being present in the Nordic region and also here makes sense. I don't know however, if there's a clear relationship to a Platonic understanding that bled into their mythology and folk-lore, but I think there's a clear analogous relationship with a Platonic understanding of philosophy with the Theory of Forms and the way the World Tree mythology is represented, but I'd have to look into this further. Without viewing the film yet, I can't add much in regards to the three women yet, however your presentation seems rational and a good interpretation. I personally don't know how much variance we can all come up with in regards to them, so I plan on exploring the Trinity aspect of this movie that's constantly present from my prep research. Three women, sons, and dragons from what I understand are present. A trinity of trinities is obviously intentional here and thus warrants exploration, which I'll work on. |
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Post by Ken (INTJ) on Sept 5, 2018 13:21:30 GMT
While I haven't watched the film yet due to doing prep work on Magyar mythology and folklore, Clarification: there is no longer a two day rule for comments until September 9th, so that everyone has time to research and finish their prep work first. |
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Post by slotahimself (INTP) on Sept 5, 2018 13:39:19 GMT
While I haven't watched the film yet due to doing prep work on Magyar mythology and folklore, [/span][/quote] Clarification: there is no longer a two day rule for comments until September 9th, so that everyone has time to research and finish their prep work first.[/quote] Good to know, in my own post I'll tie off the points I raised in yours. |
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Post by Napoleoff (INTP) on Sept 5, 2018 21:18:28 GMT
For those who are further interested in Hungarian films which contradict the Hollywood/Parisian/Berlin currents that dominate the movie industry, I would recommend Az ember tragédiája (The Tragedy of Man). I have not yet found a good English transcript of the play which it is based on. If anyone could assist me in discovering a translation that would be enormously helpful. OK I wrote a long detailed post in the 'create post' box about my research regarding The Tragedy of Man translations and biographical info about the translators but accidentally refreshed the page and lost it and can't be bothered to do it all again. Anyway, here is a stripped-down version with links and my relevant biographical conclusions about the translators:
Since Hungarian is essentially impossible for a foreigner to learn convincingly, I would assume the best translations would be done by those with Hungarian as a first language and who are somewhat trustworthy. I don't know what you would consider a "good" English transcript of The Tragedy of Man, but here's 5 different ones for you to choose from, some of which have links to different websites for the same translation in case one goes down. I got most of these links from:
archive.org has different formats including EPUBS, PDFs and txt files. We should consider archiving our research especially things such as transcripts/translations. The following are in chronological order:
(1) Translated by William N. Loew (Loew N. Vilmos in Hungarian, born 12 August 1847, died 17 October 1922), Arcadia Press, New York, author dates the introduction 1908. Published by University of California:
Relevant biographical information about the translator: Born in Pápa, Hungary, son of a rabbi, moved to America, worked for the New York Bar, died in New York.
(2) Translated by J.C.W. Horne, Corvina, Budapest, 1963: Relevant biographical information about the translator: None, sounds British, Canadian or American, not Hungarian. Judge for yourself his translational prowess.
(3) Translated and adapted by Iain Macleod, Canongate Press, Edinburgh, 1993: Relevant biographical information about the translator: I found many Iain Macleods in Scotland and none of them is him. Sounds Scottish to the core.
(4) Translated by George Szirtes (born 29 November 1948), Corvina, Budapest, 1998 (Third Edition): Relevant biographical information about the translator: Born in Hungary, moved to Britain as 'refugee' in 1956 at age 8, poet and translator. Contributed an article entitled 'Hidden Jewish Roots' to 'Habitus: A Diaspora Journal,' link to Habitus dead (bottom of the Wikipedia article):
(5) Translated from the Hungarian by Ottó Tomschey (Tomschey Ottó in Hungarian, born 28 September 1943), Budapest, 2000: Relevant biographical information about the translator: Hungarian. Father a lawyer-economist, possibly German-descent; mother an opera singer with a Hungarian name. Tomschey worked as a geochemist before retiring. Also translates. Not sure if still alive.
You can use Google translate on the Hungarian links I posted. Let me know if you find any of these translations satisfactory or not satisfactory.
P.S. Here is a link to illustrations of Imre Madách's The Tragedy of Man by the artist Mihály Zichy:
P.P.S. I actually ended up writing a longer post than before I deleted the first attempt so I guess I did bother to do it again.
P.P.P.S. If I had to choose a translator who I thought was trustworthy AND with Hungarian as his first language, I would choose Ottó Tomschey. But as I said I don't know which translation is the best so judge for yourself; maybe Horne's translation is good too, or Macleod's. It is even technically possible that Loew's or Szirtes's are good translations. It is also possible there are other translations I have not discovered.
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Post by Ken (INTJ) on Sept 6, 2018 0:52:23 GMT
This is really good. Having only seen the 2011 animation, I notice immediately that some parts have been changed (the Angels seem to have been removed). But from what I've heard the script of the animation is supposed to be lifted directly from the play. What I would like to see would be a subtitling or dubbing of the movie, which I'm not sure exists. To archive any forum post, you can go to " archive.is". Also, my recommendation: before writing a long forum post, or while writing a long forum post, save it to google documents or gmail drafts. That way if your internet disconnects when you post it, you'll have a saved copy. |
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Post by Westernman (INTP) on Sept 10, 2018 17:35:26 GMT
Animation is stunning, good observation that the psychedelic aesthetic may have been preferred as a way of wooing the leftist minds that viewed it. We should take note of this and perhaps mirror this tactic in the future. Entice the left with an amiable leftist, artistic veneer while subverting them by implanting a deeply traditional morality. This can't have had a poor yield, look at Hungary today.
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Post by A.H. (INTP) on Sept 10, 2018 21:50:35 GMT
As a disclaimer besides your presentation I have yet to watch the whole film and have only skimmed through it.
Great observations and very well put together.
What you have laid out is very thorough and thought through. I don’t have much to add to your observations due to a lack of time but I have put some thought into it.
The world tree metaphor
Yggdrasil is Eihwaz
The gate of hell is the gate to fleshly life ones soul is thrust through at birth from where one regrows the spiritual body that envelops the soul. The hero is born as a horse, the animalistic instinct from where he is made ready and shaped into a human being to the point where he can be let into the real world from the warmth and safety of the home. The spiritual body is breathed into the hero and he is then set free to experience the world for himself.
The old father archetype
Odin the Allfather, the Origin the God of wisdom, the Father of all gods, is the ancestral God the Breath, the rune Ansuz.
The God of Order, Reason and Language. He is the Sound, the chanting of poetry.
Very well said
The more subtle layers of the conscious mind shines through stronger when deprived of certain sensation and can bring out the unconscious to become conscious. This process can also be reached through meditation on subtleness and can be very insightful. The subtle can be viewed as the periphery to the subconscious, that periphery can be made fuzzier or more transparent through meditation on it and a well of inspiration can be drawn of it. From my experience meditation on the subtle is the most powerful form of meditation you can do, it have created the deepest forms of insight that I have ever known.
I see that the most creative and most innovative is most often drawn out of somewhat restrictive environments or rule-sets.
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Post by slotahimself (INTP) on Sept 11, 2018 19:09:08 GMT
"I see that the most creative and most innovative is most often drawn out of somewhat restrictive environments or rule-sets."
It seems so, I think that's well put. I raised the same questions in my presentation and thought out loud about it and this seems to be the case. A simplification being you don't really know what you've lost until it's gone, then there seems to be a longing for whatever general aspects are suppressed even if people can't fully articulate what it is. I think they were very aware of it in this case however, the movie smashes you in the face with it every second.
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